Rachel and the connection with giants and angels

[Fringeling]

I think this could possibly be fairly signifficant and hint dropping as to the importance of Rachel and Olivia.

Rachels Name

To anyone who knows Biblical history, Rachel is a name power packed with meaning. She was Jacob's favorite wife ----- Jacob who would later have his name changed to Israel (Israel itself means, he who struggles with God). Jacobs second wife was Rachel's older sister Leah -------- not as attractive or desirable to Jacob. In fact, Rachel and Leah's father tricked Jacob into marrying Leah first, even though he didn't want this. Later he would get to marry the woman he really wanted to be with ----- Rachel.

Rachel and Israel would have two sons, but not at first. God apparently had compassion on the lesser sister Leah, and allowed her to be productive bearing children. Rachel struggled and was barren, until she finally bore Joseph. She would later bear one more son, Benjamin --- in which she died giving birth to him. Together, with Leah and Rachel and their handmaidens, Jacob/Israel would have 12 sons ---- the 12 tribes of Israel.

Might I also point out that Jacob was Rachel's first cousin!

Okay, so on the surface I can see a dozen possible theories based off the meaning of her name already. Just to start though, I'm wondering how this plays into the references already pointed out in Fringe to Judaeo/Christian beliefs (i.e. MD is Hell, William Bell is the devil, the Observer is an angel, Walter is God, etc). Could Rachel be the mother of the chosen people in Fringe? But I want to explore a different possible direction ------

Greg, the assumed father of Ella:

Olivia asks Rachel if she's heard from Greg. I am assuming this is either her boyfriend / husband / or father of Ella. At this point, it seems unclear however I'm guessing he had a hand in raising Ella based off of Olivia and Rachel's conversation. So, assuming Greg is signifficant, let's look at the meaning of his name:

Greg is short for Gregory, which comes from the Greek word Grigori. Now, anyone versed in Nephillim theory/history should start to get a tingle up their spine right about now. Grigori means "watcher" in Greek, and was the name given to a class of angels. But not just any class of angels. This was the name associated with The Watchers of the Old Testament / Book of Daniel / Book of Enoch / Book of Genesis. Ring a bell yet? The Grigori were angels who fell from grace in Genesis and mated with women to produce the Nephilim. These were the Giants, the Fallen Ones, the offspring of angels (spiritual beings) mating with women. I'm not going to hash out the entirety of the history of the Nephilim here, but it is discussed somewhat here in this thread in response to some ideas D-Roc was exploring.

And for those of you who don't know Nephilim theory history, the Nephilim were in general believed to be giants with SIX DIGITS on their hands and feet. This is referenced in 2 Samuel, OT. And for those of you who are new to this idea, I am thinking about the six handed glyph here (which, I might add, was used in this episode).

So lets quickly look at Ella's name:

In old English it could mean "elfin or fairy like." In Old German it means "foreign." It could be a bastardization of the Greek for "light". But in apparently Ella in Hebrew can mean "goddess". Hmmm ..... I'm wondering if (symbolicaly), the mating of an angel and a human could produce a goddess? It certainly could in Roman/Greek mythology.

I want to add one more piece to the possible allusions to these connections in this episode, and I think it's a critical one. Remember that the Nephilim were historically giants? Snippets of Walter's lab notes from this episode:

"...... How dificult it proves to separate myth from fact,and fact from myth! Gigantism abounds in legend. The giant Ouranos begat Cronos, also a giant; and from his belly burst the Olympians, themselves giants in the eyes of men. And likewise Buri beget Bor who begat Wotan ......Always giants within giants within giants - of course! ...... SUPERSIZED! A new word in my lexicon......Giants within giants again. To what other purposes might this remarkable technique be applied? ..... Even we hominids might take part ...... "

The allusions to gods begating giant gods is mentioned directly by Walter. He also intertwines myth with fact, and comments that "we hominids" might take part. Coincidence?

Oh, and let me point out one other reference --- and it came during the hiatus. Which football game was our Observer/Watcher at recently? The Eagles verse the GIANTS ................. and that's a shout out to you D-Roc .... who figured out the apparent link to Prometheus Corp here.



-------

Now I'm not saying I subscribe to the Nephilim idea completely, I'm just laying out the allusions. The show also makes allusions to UFO's and MIBs, but that doesn't mean they will have them. I think these are threads of mythology that will dictate the unfolding of how Fringe will play out, like the Prometheus references, the Trevisanus symbols, the chess game analogies, etc.

[Tritium]

Excellent post!


There are too many connections here for it to be accidental. I'm starting to wonder just how many researchers and continuity controllers they have on Fringe.

Reading over this almost makes waiting for Lost bearable!

[dach]

oh come on now i believe J.J is fixing football so Fringe can connect with it. Well can he do something with cats like Jaguars so we can win the Super Bowl.

the scary thing is im thinking they wrote the episode way before the teams were determined to play against each other.

oh wait
Giants and eagle played 3 times

once in November, December and January
ok they filmed it late November, early Dec, i guess wrote is early Nov.

so this is possible because those games are determinded. i think the fact the episode was airing a week later was a coincendence.

[zadok]

Not quibbling with this connection at all, just wanted to nit pick a bit, Biblically speaking. The Nephilim were the angels, not their offspring. The Giants/Mighty Men they produced are the "Gibbor". "Nephilim" means "fallen ones", IE the angels that sinned and mated with women. The translators made a mistake calling them "giants" in Gen. 6:4 and Num. 13:33. Carry on...

[zadok]

Originally Posted by Fringeling

Greg, the assumed father of Ella:

That made me think of Luke 3:23 - And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph...

[Fringeling]

Originally Posted by zadok

Not quibbling with this connection at all, just wanted to nit pick a bit, Biblically speaking. The Nephilim were the angels, not their offspring. The Giants/Mighty Men they produced are the "Gibbor". "Nephilim" means "fallen ones", IE the angels that sinned and mated with women. The translators made a mistake calling them "giants" in Gen. 6:4 and Num. 13:33. Carry on...

Quibbling is just fine ........... as is picking nits ......... so "allow me to retort" so to speak :

I'm aware of the view that Nephilim was a term actually supposed to represent the Sons of God / Watchers / Angels who mated with women (since it is most closely translated to mean Fallen Ones). However, the concept that the Nephilim term meaning Fallen Ones actually did define the Giant offspring, and not the angels, is the most widely held view by the Early Church Fathers. The idea was that normal men had "hearts that failed" when they viewed the Nephilim due to their massive size was one thought as to why they were referred to as Fallen Ones (because men would fall down from fear). I think this is kind of a weak logic myself, but the dominant view of Nephilim being the offspring rules most conspiracy circles and historical views (that actually think angels did this mating with women).

The Mighty Men are indeed the Gibbor or Giborrim. Some go so far as to say the Gibborim and Nephilim are different races or tribes of offspring altogether. There are also beliefs that Raphaim, Anakim, (and others I can't remember right now) are "tribes" of the offspring.

I definitely think that the term Nephilim should refer to the 'fallen angels', and not the offspring (it makes more sense to me), however ----- for whatever reason -------- this is not the classical view predominant amongst those that view the account of the Sons of God mating with women as describing angels.

And there are of course views that express the concept that the Sons of God mentioned have nothing to do with angels, there were no giants (they were giant in their sinful nature, not stature), etc. etc. For the purpose of the mythological-allusions-theory in Fringe, I like the idea that the show is suggesting a theme along with the Fallen Angels / Nephilim offspring view. Regardless of which "stand" the creators take (as to whether the Nephilim were the angels or the offspring), I don't think the show is going to have a story arc which claims this is historically true. That would be too jaded toward advertising for a certain religion. I think the hints at mythological concepts throughout different faiths is a means of clues to explain the routes the show is going to take.

No, for now, the religion of Fringe is Fringe itself! That's almost quote worthy!

[zadok]

Originally Posted by Fringeling

I definitely think that the term Nephilim should refer to the 'fallen angels', and not the offspring (it makes more sense to me), however ----- for whatever reason -------- this is not the classical view predominant amongst those that view the account of the Sons of God mating with women as describing angels.

You are correct. I personally just was never one to accept the "predominant view" of anything, especially when it comes to Biblical exegesis. I do my own research.

Regardless of which "stand" the creators take (as to whether the Nephilim were the angels or the offspring), I don't think the show is going to have a story arc which claims this is historically true. That would be too jaded toward advertising for a certain religion. I think the hints at mythological concepts throughout different faiths is a means of clues to explain the routes the show is going to take.

I agree. Even though Genesis is accepted as Divine Scripture by Christianity, Islam and Judiasm...